Does the community know what they want?

[Kanyatta]

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

She is was in charge of community relations and so she should have taken care of ALL of the community not just the parts she liked best/cared about more. So no shit the PvP'ers dont like her she never did anything for PvP. If she had done everything for PvP and nothing for PvE you would be the one bitching right now.

When something is broken in PvE you want it fixed, same goes for PvP. Not only that but changes in PvP very rarely affect changes in PvE (today they don't at all). Everytime Anet nerfed something for PvP in PvE you always found a way around the nerf so it didn't matter anyways. TBH the only skill i can think of off the top of my head that has been nerfed beyond use as a result of PvP is EW.

Rest of the game didn't suffer at the hands of PvP you can say it all you want its not true.

QFT, especially the bold part. I just thought it needed to be said again. As soon as I read the post this was a response to, I immediately thought the same thing, especially the bolded part.

Before the separation of PvP and PvE skill balancing, the PvE community whined out their asses that their game was being ruined, and now that their switched, PvPers don't really care, since it didn't affect them at all, and PvEers still whine about all their old IMBA skills that they think should be reverted. Yes, I am generalizing, but I'd say it is a pretty fair stereotype.

I'm not trying to start a PvP vs. PvE war, because, being a PvPer, I know the PvP community still whines about WS and the 3 year desecration of Tombs/HA as being nothing more than OP gimmicks, and [Signet of Midnight] and Daze being insanely overpowered in 4v4 arenas. By the way, the "fix" to shadow stepping was the worst idea I've seen in a long time. Seriously, if a 1 second cast was given to shadow step spells/skills, I'd have no problem, but the aftercast was a terrible idea.

[Age]

There are a lot of things I would want but most are close minded and won't support them.

[DivineEnvoy]

Let me try to analyze the general definition of that skill over time idea. Skill over time basically should mean if a person is able to adapt to his or her skills efficiently and use them wisely, this person can proceed in the game faster than the people who can't. And consequently, people who cannot do the same will spend more time either learning the skills or earn some gold to hire a runner. In all honesty, this has been true since the very day back in 2004.

However, from the arguments I have been looking at for a while now, most the so-called skill over time idea is that you can only proceed in the game if and only if you have the skill. I believe everyone has a different definition to what skill is. Perhaps by meeting the definition of skill to one person will do good for this person's game, but what about the rest of the population? Will it really be good for the game in the general sense? I don't think so. In fact, by forcing one person's moral down to other people, people will just leave. So with most people leaving the game, how is that good for the game again?

Nonetheless, this is just an example to the point I'm about to make. Most people, whether it is on the forum or in the game, they know what they want, but most of them don't know what others want. If one would look through most of these suggestions or arguments, most of these creators would never consider the existence of other people, or even the need of other people. It is not the case that these ideas aren't implemented because people don't know what they want. It's the case that these ideas aren't implemented because they will do more harm than good. To be honest, I doubt any of this will change any time soon.

[Bryant Again]

This isn't in response to your whole post, but into this very interesting snippet:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

*snip* Perhaps by meeting the definition of skill to one person will do good for this person's game, but what about the rest of the population?

You provide easier accessibility. ANet had the opportunity to do this with the release of Hard mode (dumb down NM while keeping HM for those who want more of a challenge), but the only instance they really put it to good use was for NM DoA.

Another interesting little tidbit:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

To be honest, I doubt any of this will change any time soon.

Just the first step of many.

[Kashrlyyk]

Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

She is was in charge of community relations and so she should have taken care of ALL of the community not just the parts she liked best/cared about more. So no shit the PvP'ers dont like her she never did anything for PvP. If she had done everything for PvP and nothing for PvE you would be the one bitching right now. .....

She was not the only community relations manager! What about Mr. Patrick?

[Spazzer]

Of the 12 friends I originally bought guild wars with on release, only I actively still play. Eight of them quit after the first two months. The playerbase has really grown since then.

The game is a hook. Those of us who get hooked and stay are the bait.

The idea is to keep the community stoking to generate more sales. I'm sure the vast majority of the playerbase no longer intends to log in anymore, so the upkeep cost is really not that high. During this last event, only three of my release friends logged in.

[pumpkin pie]

you've ask a very difficult question!

People spend years, decades even, collecting demographic data! if and when you can pin point exactly what a community wants, you'd be very rich!

[DarkNecrid]

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

She was not the only community relations manager! What about Mr. Patrick?

Andrew Patrick was only a PvP community relations guy for a very short time. The best community relations guy Anet had was Alex Weekes, he did things for both sides and he did them well. Gaile is really good and I like her, but she only did stuff for PvE. Andrew Patrick is a good guy and I like him but he could be pretty dumb sometimes (Splinter Weapon isn't imba just heal all your NPCs!!11!11!!). Regina is a great lady, and I like her style, but she is not there for PvP at all unless if you push on her about it. No one is there for PvP atm. One could argue given how stuff turned out even with Patrick doing stuff, no one has been there since Alex Weekes quit.

[upier]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Then if it's so easy, why make it easier? Why make a Hard mode and then continue to make it as simple as the Normal mode when players can just stay in the Normal mode?

My guess is that because the only point of HM are the titles.
So if you aren't good enough to venture into PvP or dislike PvP - you evidently aren't playing the game seeking a challenge. You are playing for different reasons. And this caters those people.
(But of course "answers" like this can't exactly be used as the basis for a discussion - since A.Net would have to state this. Otherwise it's just speculation.)

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And if they only catered to the "worst" players in PvE, we wouldn't have seen a nerf to SF, and we definitely wouldn't be seeing an upcoming change to Ursan Blessing.

If Ursan stays in the game, if SF can be kept up indefinitely and if SR remains in this form - then A.Net is catering bad players in PvE.
It's not just the nerf that is relevant - it's how the nerf is executed.

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

The best players may not always want to PvP or may feel like they do not have ideal conditions for PvP, especially re the internet connection: I know people who have the occasional drop to 1k+ ping or more - this is OK if you're in PvE, but heaven forbid you're in anything remotely PvP, even AB.

Like I said - then you are obviously not looking for a challenge (if you don't want to play PvP - because we already established many times before that foes in PvE will NEVER be as challenging as players) plus you can't really blame A.Net for your bad internet connection.
If you aren't able to play (because of objective reasons like bad I-connection) the game you want - you can always quit.

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

Hall of Monuments made it vital that people get as many titles as possible, so of course more inexperienced/less skilled players are going to use the cheapest, easiest ways possible to get their titles, since that's the flashiest thing a PvE player can display (aside from armor and weapons, etc.). Of course, the fact that it's linked to GW2 makes it even more essential for everyone to rush off and grab as many titles as possible. If you're one of the more skilled players, you can probably create strong builds on your own to get through these titles. If you're not, you might very well end up over-relying on things like consumables and PvE skills, which means you're going to complain if and when they get nerfed.

True - but currently we pretty much have the best PvE players complaining about PvE. The best players aren't acting the way you described.

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

Both sides are part of the community, and I'm quite sure both sides know what they want. Sometimes, at the end of the day, the voice that shouts the loudest is the one that gets heard. If the people you consider inept and shitty players complain more than the supposedly skilled players do, then they are more likely to be heard and catered to.

Does this happen in PvP?
I think that skill balances because of bad players are pretty much limited to PvE only - since otherwise we'd see the death of touchies ages ago.

[Phoenix Tears]

i don't speak for the com, but at least I know for myself, what I want XD as extreme tiny part of the community *gg*

[glacialphoenix]

Originally Posted by upier

If Ursan stays in the game, if SF can be kept up indefinitely and if SR remains in this form - then A.Net is catering bad players in PvE.
It's not just the nerf that is relevant - it's how the nerf is executed.

Not arguing here. I don't want to decide to randomly do something, zone to (insert area here) and end up teaming with a bunch of people who have completely missed out on the idea of pulling.

Like I said - then you are obviously not looking for a challenge (if you don't want to play PvP - because we already established many times before that foes in PvE will NEVER be as challenging as players) plus you can't really blame A.Net for your bad internet connection.
If you aren't able to play (because of objective reasons like bad I-connection) the game you want - you can always quit.

You shouldn't have to play PvP to feel challenged. I meant that for those who choose not to venture into PvP for whatever reason, there has to be some kind of kick. You say Anet is catering to bad players, which is probably linked to that - I know that if I PUG, I expect nothing but ursanway and players of differing levels of skill (but generally stuck at the bottom rungs of the skill ladder).

True - but currently we pretty much have the best PvE players complaining about PvE. The best players aren't acting the way you described.

The best PvE players are complaining about PvE, yes. I'm aware of that. However, if they choose to listen to the best PvE players, then the weaker players who rely on consumables/PvE skills/ursanway etc. will start complaining. They're both parts of the community. Once you cater to one of them, there's a fairly good chance the other side will start complaining.

Does this happen in PvP?
I think that skill balances because of bad players are pretty much limited to PvE only - since otherwise we'd see the death of touchies ages ago.

In all honesty, idk. I'm using PvE mostly because the loudest complaints seem to be about PvE skills and how imbalanced they are.

Mind, since they're considering nerfing Ursan Blessing, I now have hope - it's gone unnerfed for far too long.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by upier

My guess is that because the only point of HM are the titles.
So if you aren't good enough to venture into PvP or dislike PvP - you evidently aren't playing the game seeking a challenge. You are playing for different reasons. And this caters those people.

So people don't play HM for an increased challenge, to get better at PvE, and for fun?

I also don't think we're in any position to say how "easy" GW is, by the way, since there's a point for every player when the game becomes "super easy". Like me, I cannot stand up and say "oh GW is easy". It'd be like me saying that Nightmare mode in Doom is easy. There is a threshold in any player vs. environment game where it becomes "easy". It's how and how quickly you reach that that matters.

Speaking for myself, I can say that GW has challenged me very well. It's taken me nearly all of those three years to become the player that I am and be able to solve the solutions I face.

And that's what's the problem: you don't have to go through this to experience the game. ANet has effectively removed their difficulty levels. It's not a problem when they provide easier and more accessible methods (ex. Gears of War 2's new easiest difficulty) but when you make the largely unaccessible methods, well, accessible. It doesn't matter how long the game has been in existence or how much it's "dying" (which GW is *very* far from) - you do not eliminate the depth of a game. It turns away players just as much as it ties in new ones, if not moreso.

Many of the people here against these changes are no longer actively playing. We're not saying that we want to stay in GW and have it be meaningful, we just don't want it to become meaningless. HM, as it is, is *very* meaningless since you can just up title ranks and succeed anywhere in the game.

Originally Posted by upier

If Ursan stays in the game, if SF can be kept up indefinitely and if SR remains in this form - then A.Net is catering bad players in PvE.
It's not just the nerf that is relevant - it's how the nerf is executed.

...And how it's execute determines who's in favor of the catering. If they nerf UB, I think that shows something. Previous gimmicky builds still exist all over GW, but are many of them still effective?

The SF example was brought in not in a sense of catering/uncatering to the bad players but to show that ANet does care and want to improve PvE. As it is it's still maintainable, but less in an accessible sense.